Rail Fence
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Patrick Zopff
Open Mic Organizer
Patrick ZopffPatrick Zopff is a local artist and musician who hosts weekly open mic nights at Sitwell’s Coffee House. He fosters a community environment and makes sure that there is a place for the different voices of Clifton to be heard. During our interview we talked about his own artistic practice, the power of handmade objects, the Cincinnati music scene, and the beauty of open mics.
Now that we are recording, why don't you go ahead and tell me your name, your pronouns, and why you think I asked you to be part of this project.
My name is Patrick Zopff. I prefer he or they. The third question was was why I was chosen? I run an open mic in Cincinnati on Ludlow street, uh, at this place called Sitwell's coffee and usually three weeks out of the month, every month, on Wednesday nights, I host people and just kind of let anybody who wants step up to the microphone and say stuff or make music or whatever, tell stories. I get these regulars, these constituents, these members. There's walk-ins every week. There's people who've never done it before and for whatever reason they'll feel compelled to do it. I've been doing it since the beginning of September, 2019, I think. So that's almost six months.
It's a long time.
Yeah. And it's just been really interesting to see that sort of play out. When I first started I was really terribly nervous.
Just to perform?PERFORMANCE WASN'T THE HARD PART, SO MUCH AS TALKING INTO THE MICROPHONE IN BETWEEN PEOPLE'S PERFORMANCES. I KIND OF FELT THE NEED TO GO UP AND JUST MAKE A COMMENT ON WHAT JUST HAPPENED AND THEN CREATE A SEGUE FOR THE NEXT PERSON. THAT KIND OF SEEMED LIKE A LOT OF PRESSURE TO ME. YOU DON'T WANT TO ACT SURPRISED THAT SOMEONE WAS SO GOOD. YOU JUST GOTTA SAY 'THAT WAS PRETTY COOL. EVERYBODY, LET'S GIVE THEM ONE MORE ROUND OF APPLAUSE' AND MOVE ON. THAT WAS A REALLY TRICKY THING FOR ME TO FIGURE OUT. FOR A WHILE I WOULD OVER COMPLIMENT PEOPLE OR I WOULD SAY TOO LITTLE. I'M GETTING BETTER.
It's a learning process I'm sure. Why did you decide that you wanted to start this?
I was asked to run it by the owners of Sitwell's, but it was only after sort of a confusion. There's a Cincinnati poetry collective that meets at Sitwell's. I stopped into this open mic that was being held by the poetry collective. It was like kind of an open mic, but it was also that these people had been doing it for a long time and they all know each other. So it was more a chance for them to all gather and share poetry. So I showed up with a guitar and just kinda sat in the back and I was kinda confused. But after that point, I think the Sitwell's owners kind of realized there was an opportunity. Lydia's right across the street, had been doing it for years. And I'm happy to be doing it. I'm really lucky that they asked me to do it.
So you don't do a lot of organization or sourcing before? It's kind of just whoever comes plays?
Yeah. I'm not in communication really with the artists at all. Other than if they know me, or if they follow my online presence or something, they get to see any advertising I do for it. But really I don't promote it very much. It's just sort of part of the Sitwell's agenda. I have some experience with dealing with groups of people, but not really in a 'stage' sort of scenario. Back in high school I used to lead retreats and stuff. I was really into the whole youth ministry thing for awhile.
Is that something you still are part of?
WHY DO YOU LIKE THAT?
I DUNNO. I THINK MAYBE BEING IN A SCENARIO LIKE THAT, WHERE PEOPLE ARE WILLINGLY COMING TOGETHER AND IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'RE TOGETHER BECAUSE OF SOME PROBLEM. THEY'RE ALL COMING TOGETHER KIND OF AS A LEISURE. PROBLEM-SOLVING HAPPENS INADVERTENTLY.
I really enjoy the idea of retreats. I don't go on retreats anymore really. There's not a lot of opportunities for that as an adult. But I liked the idea that we're setting time aside from daily life and it's not like we're reacting to a problem. But if you have problems, you can talk about it. You present some ideas to people and a lot of times, when they're in a group and they feel safe, these ideas or these meditations that you present to people just open them up. They suddenly feel like sharing either a lesson or a dilemma, which is a really vulnerable thing to do. It's kind of beautiful and people can trust each other all out in the open like that. I dunno. In a seemingly public seemingly strange place.
That makes sense. They feel comfortable.
By choice instead of some forced thing. The open mic is a lot like that. I can write a song about grief and present it if I so choose at an open Mike. And that helps me feel better about it.
Do you ever have people come up and ask you about the things you sing about or share?
Oh, rarely. I think with the open mics, I guess they're given that opportunity. I think a lot of it, people go and sing their song about whatever it is. I feel like the cathartic part is just performing it and after that, they may want to talk about what the song's about, but the song was the important part.
Are you a particularly religious guy?
No. No, not these days. When I was a senior in high school, I was really torn between going to the seminary or going to art school. Art was something that I was fascinated by much longer. Since my earliest memories. My belief nowadays is sort of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. But I think that beauty reveals itself to us through other people and their creative work. Creating opportunities for other people to share their creative stuff is kind of like hosting a church. So the open mic has become such an important thing for me. It feels like I'm doing all the things that some community leaders, some sort of minister, chaplain, or somebody would. But I'm not really espousing any system to them at all other than being polite to each other and listening. I think that aligns with my current worldview really well.
What would you say your current worldview is?
OH MAN. I CAN'T MAKE ANY FIRM JUDGMENTS ABOUT ANYTHING. MY ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION KEEPS COMING BACK TO JUST THE NEED FOR KINDNESS. I CAN'T SPEND TOO MUCH TIME WORRYING ABOUT WHY WE EXIST OR ANYTHING BECAUSE I'M JUST SO OVERWHELMED WITH THE NEED TO PRACTICE BETTER KINDNESS. I FEEL LIKE NO MATTER HOW YOU DO IT, THERE'S ALWAYS WAYS TO DO IT BETTER. JUST GOTTA BE UNASSUMING AND GENTLE.
What are some other ways you do that in your life?
Hmm. For awhile I was a part of- this is so similar but it does provide context. Before I was in the open mic, I was a part of a songwriters group who would meet weekly and it was much like the open mic, but it was kind of a set group of people. Three or four people. We would just each share either a written piece or a song or something. I don't know. I think creative acceptance is a huge thing. It's really rewarding to feel accepted by another person, especially someone who is also making stuff. I dunno what advice I have for people who don't feel the need to be creative.
I SUPPOSE THERE'S JUST OTHER WAYS TO PRACTICE ACCEPTANCE AND TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER. BEING CREATIVE A FUNNY THING. SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY SEEM LIKE IT'S DOING MUCH. IT MIGHT EVEN SEEM LIKE A SELF-SERVING PRACTICE. I GRAPPLE WITH THAT A LOT. OFTEN I'M CONVINCED THAT I'M NOT REALLY HELPING. BUT I FEEL LIKE AT THE VERY LEAST, MAKING OTHER PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEIR FEELINGS ARE LEGITIMATE IS A GOOD THING.
What do you do when you're worried that you're not helping? Is there something you tell yourself that helps with that feeling?
If I'm worried I'm not helping because I'm just focusing on being a songwriter or an artist or something I try to find a concrete way to help somebody. I know some other artists who are really struggling financially these days, so I've loaned money to people a couple of times. Even making something for somebody. Not as a means of an outlet. It isn't something I'm making to console my sad little heart or something. If I intentionally go outside of myself and make a card for a friend or something, that usually helps remedy the weird narcissism feeling. I know some artists who are really, really sold on the analog construction thing. I don't know if she wants me to say her name, but this friend of mine, I met with her a few times just to talk about art and everything she does is pretty much handmade. I asked her about that and she said that it's about
A HANDMADE WORK OF ART HAS MORE ENERGY. THE PRESENTATION OF AN IDEA, THE IDEA ITSELF, WHATEVER IT IS, THE MENTAL IMAGE THAT YOU GET WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PIECE IS ONE THING. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, THERE'S THE PROCESS. I FEEL LIKE THE EVIDENCE OF THE PROCESS COMMUNICATE SOMETHING ELSE. I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE EQUATION WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING A WORK. OR WHETHER OR NOT IT MOVES YOU, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE MESSAGE COMMUNICATED INITIALLY, THE SUPERFICIAL, OR WHATEVER THAT IS. AND THEN THERE'S THE DEEPER MESSAGE, WHICH IS COMMUNICATED BY THE PROCESS THE ARTISTS CHOSE.
I think that there are some messages that are best delivered by some automatic or non handmade means. Some messages are best delivered by a digital, removed process I guess. But energy, human energy, really is conveyed if it's hand stitched, if it's hand painted. Really if you see evidence of time and toil. I feel like I'm going to get back into spiritual mumbo jumbo but really you can't commodify or monetize. There's no way to really figure out how valuable human time is and effort. I'm always really excited by analog anything cause it hints at that truth. It reaffirms what everyone's been doing for a long time. Giving other people sketchbooks is one of my new favorite things to do. Cause it's kinda like telling someone 'your thoughts are worth it. Write them down. I don't need to see them, but I want you to see how cool your thoughts are'.
Do you want to talk a little bit about your band?
Music is a really unique type of art. I never really thought about it the way that I think about fine art until more recently. Being in a band is an interesting opportunity. Band music, I guess, like garage rock music or music that's made up of young people getting together and spending time with their instruments together- you just kinda start writing songs. I feel like it lines up really well with the processes that I was told about for inspiration. The processes that painters go through sitting in their studios alone- you have to kind of confront things that are at the back of your mind. Doing that with a group of people is a really healthy thing I think. I dunno, in college I would always spend long nights in the painting studio beating my head against a wall, trying to figure out what I want to make. Which is fine. Sometimes I like that. And I guess a painting is never quite the same as a song or a live band experience. They're very different. I find myself trying to think about them analogously- like they're homogenous. They're just two different types of the same type of expression. Just one is more ephemeral and one is more experiential or something. But my band In The Pines- we live together, in this house, and when we first moved into this house like two summers ago, we set the basement up as a studio, like a music studio. We recorded an album down there with what microphones we had. That received some nice feedback. And we just recorded another album. We're trying to figure out what the cover artwork will be. When you're in a collaborative setting you're trying to figure out what everybody wants. But I'm really thankful for the opportunity. Sometimes it's frustrating, but it's mostly really rewarding. Being in a band, as opposed to say being like a DJ or a beat maker or something, I guess that's another analog construction thing. It has to do with what you value and what culture you are choosing to participate in.
How would you define your community?
I just want to like preface and say that I try to let the community kind of happened to me. I'm a person who perceives instead of judges I guess. I wait for an answer instead of trying to apply an answer to what it already is. So I feel like my community is probably defined by- I participate in a lot of communities. I'm on the web. I'm in Cincinnati. I'm from Dayton. There are elements of my community that are nationwide, worldwide. There are elements of my community that are just this street. The community that I service with the open mic is definitely Clifton-central. Centered around this drag of Ludlow Avenue. But anybody from Cincinnati, or I've had people come to the open mic who were from Florida. Just traveling and they stopped in. I feel like all these communities sort of exist around me. I just kind of bump against them and I'm really thankful for it. But my tendency as an artist is kind of to stay as an observer. I suppose it has prevented me from becoming overly active in any particular community. I'm not overly political, not overly religious. I participate in those conversations when I have to. I prefer it when it's no politics and no existential talk. That's why the open mic is perfect. It's just about the people that are in the room with you and what they have to say and entertaining them. I love that. It's just storytelling. It's what humans love doing. A community that exists outside of me, but that I do participate in is the music scene of Cincinnati, which is becoming really cool. And by cool I just mean that you see a lot of the same faces. Maybe because it's a smaller city, but I also think it's because the people who are engaged in it are really engaged. They go to each other's shows. They appear at gatherings. It creates a sort of family, these reoccurring characters, these people who are all just committed to being involved.
I would definitely like to hear more about that from you. I've done a couple of conversations where we talked a little bit about the Cincy scene, so I'd love to get your perspective on.
I have mostly praise for it. Thankfully I haven't encountered anything weird.
What does that mean?
I don't know, just like big manipulative personalities or anything like that. I think that thankfully, I don't know if we can attribute it to being in the Midwest or something, but I think people really mild mannered.
Mild mannered. How Midwest.
EVERYONE'S PRETTY NICE IN CINCINNATI. SO IF THEY NOTICE SOMEONE BEING REALLY ABUSIVE OR SCARY OR TOXIC, IT USUALLY GETS DEALT WITH PRETTY QUICKLY. CAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T INTERESTED IN PUTTING UP WITH THAT I THINK. DESPITE BEING MILD MANNERED. EVERYONE REALIZES THAT IF YOU PUT UP WITH AN ABUSER OR A MANIPULATIVE CHARACTER, YOU'RE EXPOSING EVERYONE ELSE TO IT FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME TOO.
So taking action soon is a thing. But thankfully I don't notice it a lot. Everyone's just mostly really supportive. And you have to be. I put together a little show this past Friday where I played solo. Normally that wouldn't fly. I don't play out a lot. I don't have much of a music fan base or something, but it worked out because I just know other people who would probably want to play and I just let them know like, 'hey, I got a date at this place. Let's throw a little party'. I don't know. I think it's really easy for outsiders to become a part of it. There are people I'm meeting all the time that are just out of high school or something like that, and they're just trying to start a band. They're trying to be involved in the scene and all it takes is you have to show up. These people, these young people, I'll just see them at one show and then for the next few months they keep showing up at places. I don't know, I usually have no reason not to like them. And it's not really my call whether they get to participate at all or whatever. It's one of those things, it's kind of like the open mic, where everyone's getting together and there's no pressing problem that they're trying to solve. And so people's personalities just kind of naturally shine anyways.
That's interesting. I've actually heard a lot of negative critique about the Cincy music scene from everyone that I've spoken with about it so far.
I wonder what's wrong.
I think it's mostly accessibility wise.
Yeah. My opinion comes from some privilege I imagine. Being in a band of a whole bunch of cis men is probably a little easier. But I don't know. I've also just been lucky. People don't approach me in a negative way or anything like that. For the most part people are nice. That's all I really have to say. Feeling safe- I don't know, I hardly ever feel safe.
What does that mean?
Um, I'm a nervous wreck. So being involved in music, I've just kind of had to shut that voice in my head off when I go out. That's not good advice for anybody.
Does it sometimes make you anxious to be in those spaces?
There are spaces outside of Cincy where I felt actually truly anxious. But Cincinnati, for the most part, there's a couple of venues that I'm not really fond of, but it's mostly just kind of the atmosphere. It's not really the crowd. But sometimes it is the crowd. I don't know what to do. I just kind of keep my head down.
-
Hmm. Safety. Depending on- I guess some venues it would be easy to be like trapped in a corner by somebody weird or something like that. Some places that would be easier than others. But for the most part I feel like in Cincinnati, people call shit out when something's awry or it doesn't look right. I know that that's not always what happens., What other negative things have you heard?
Actually one thing that you said exactly, somebody else said in a negative way. You said it's a lot of the same people. Like you see a lot of the same people at the different venues or performing or whatever. And one critique that, I don't remember who said it, was that it can be really insular and difficult to break into. You go to a show and it's the same five white guys performing every time.
Hmm.
It's an interesting different perspective that it's almost the same thing that is just seen differently by different people.
Like that that type of behavior is repeated?
Yeah.
Hmm. Dang. I think the insular, or the the small community aspect, that's an interesting critique. I dunno though. Like the people that you saw the last time that you were out, say if you keep noticing the same people that's easier to notice than the new people that you see each time.
That's very true.
Yeah. I dunno. Talking critique wise about a scene is a fascinating thing. Because it's not an entity that is aware of itself really.
I dunno, I've heard specifically artists talk about how a scene can be a living being and it's like this conglomerate of a bunch of different minds in one space.
Oh of course. In the hive mind aspect it's definitely alive. It can be self aware I suppose. But without a leader or without an organization of some kind of feel like it's hard to hold a scene responsible. Unless everybody collectively chooses to ignore something or choose to allow something.
Yeah. Because a scene is just made up of people. And sometimes people do good things or bad things. That doesn't necessarily make them that. You know, you can't essentialize it and say 'now they're a good person or bad person'. What?
I dunno, I'm having terrible flashbacks of this place that I played at a couple times in Athens, Ohio. It was a biker bar called The Smiling Skull and it was full of perverts and coke heads and it was just scary.
That sounds scary.
Yeah. I brought a girlfriend of mine at the time and I heard like three or four different instances of people commenting on her looks like in the room. It felt pretty gross.
Have you ever seen stuff like that in Cincinnati?
No. Well... no. Not that I have a story of. It may have happened, but it didn't impact me the way that it did there. Some of that stuff is generational. I feel like a lot of millennial people are way more conscious of stuff or just considerate. Maybe shy. Maybe it isn't that they're overly considerate, but they just have this technological isolation instilled into them. So they don't say stuff.
They keep it to themselves.
They keep it to themselves. But maybe people are just as bad in this generation. They just are a little bit less vocal. But stuff gets worse as you get into more shows, concerts with bands. Open mics by nature tend to be pretty polite because no one act is playing for all that long. So there's a lot of interruptions and a lot of opportunities to check in with the room.
I appreciate the vulnerability that exists at open mics as opposed to a gig.
Yeah, if someone was being a weird asshole or a perv or something at an open mic, I hope it would be kind of obvious and it would be quickly dealt with.
Have you never felt uncomfortable at one of your open mics?
I've felt uncomfortable, but mostly because of anxiety. I've felt objectified. But that almost will always happen when you're on a stage.
My name is Patrick Zopff. I prefer he or they. The third question was was why I was chosen? I run an open mic in Cincinnati on Ludlow street, uh, at this place called Sitwell's coffee and usually three weeks out of the month, every month, on Wednesday nights, I host people and just kind of let anybody who wants step up to the microphone and say stuff or make music or whatever, tell stories. I get these regulars, these constituents, these members. There's walk-ins every week. There's people who've never done it before and for whatever reason they'll feel compelled to do it. I've been doing it since the beginning of September, 2019, I think. So that's almost six months.
It's a long time.
Yeah. And it's just been really interesting to see that sort of play out. When I first started I was really terribly nervous.
Just to perform?
PERFORMANCE WASN'T THE HARD PART, SO MUCH AS TALKING INTO THE MICROPHONE IN BETWEEN PEOPLE'S PERFORMANCES. I KIND OF FELT THE NEED TO GO UP AND JUST MAKE A COMMENT ON WHAT JUST HAPPENED AND THEN CREATE A SEGUE FOR THE NEXT PERSON. THAT KIND OF SEEMED LIKE A LOT OF PRESSURE TO ME. YOU DON'T WANT TO ACT SURPRISED THAT SOMEONE WAS SO GOOD. YOU JUST GOTTA SAY 'THAT WAS PRETTY COOL. EVERYBODY, LET'S GIVE THEM ONE MORE ROUND OF APPLAUSE' AND MOVE ON. THAT WAS A REALLY TRICKY THING FOR ME TO FIGURE OUT. FOR A WHILE I WOULD OVER COMPLIMENT PEOPLE OR I WOULD SAY TOO LITTLE. I'M GETTING BETTER.
It's a learning process I'm sure. Why did you decide that you wanted to start this?I was asked to run it by the owners of Sitwell's, but it was only after sort of a confusion. There's a Cincinnati poetry collective that meets at Sitwell's. I stopped into this open mic that was being held by the poetry collective. It was like kind of an open mic, but it was also that these people had been doing it for a long time and they all know each other. So it was more a chance for them to all gather and share poetry. So I showed up with a guitar and just kinda sat in the back and I was kinda confused. But after that point, I think the Sitwell's owners kind of realized there was an opportunity. Lydia's right across the street, had been doing it for years. And I'm happy to be doing it. I'm really lucky that they asked me to do it.
So you don't do a lot of organization or sourcing before? It's kind of just whoever comes plays?
Yeah. I'm not in communication really with the artists at all. Other than if they know me, or if they follow my online presence or something, they get to see any advertising I do for it. But really I don't promote it very much. It's just sort of part of the Sitwell's agenda. I have some experience with dealing with groups of people, but not really in a 'stage' sort of scenario. Back in high school I used to lead retreats and stuff. I was really into the whole youth ministry thing for awhile.
Is that something you still are part of?
NO, NOT REALLY. I WAS REALLY FASCINATED BY RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL. SO INTERESTED. FOR AWHILE I WAS REALLY CONSIDERING BECOMING A PRIEST. I JUST LIKED THE IDEA OF BEING RESPONSIBLE TO PEOPLE AND BEING RELIABLE IN THAT WAY. HELPING PEOPLE FIGURE STUFF OUT TOGETHER.
WHY DO YOU LIKE THAT?
I DUNNO. I THINK MAYBE BEING IN A SCENARIO LIKE THAT, WHERE PEOPLE ARE WILLINGLY COMING TOGETHER AND IT'S NOT LIKE THEY'RE TOGETHER BECAUSE OF SOME PROBLEM. THEY'RE ALL COMING TOGETHER KIND OF AS A LEISURE. PROBLEM-SOLVING HAPPENS INADVERTENTLY.
I really enjoy the idea of retreats. I don't go on retreats anymore really. There's not a lot of opportunities for that as an adult. But I liked the idea that we're setting time aside from daily life and it's not like we're reacting to a problem. But if you have problems, you can talk about it. You present some ideas to people and a lot of times, when they're in a group and they feel safe, these ideas or these meditations that you present to people just open them up. They suddenly feel like sharing either a lesson or a dilemma, which is a really vulnerable thing to do. It's kind of beautiful and people can trust each other all out in the open like that. I dunno. In a seemingly public seemingly strange place.
That makes sense. They feel comfortable.
By choice instead of some forced thing. The open mic is a lot like that. I can write a song about grief and present it if I so choose at an open Mike. And that helps me feel better about it.
Do you ever have people come up and ask you about the things you sing about or share?
Oh, rarely. I think with the open mics, I guess they're given that opportunity. I think a lot of it, people go and sing their song about whatever it is. I feel like the cathartic part is just performing it and after that, they may want to talk about what the song's about, but the song was the important part.
Are you a particularly religious guy?
No. No, not these days. When I was a senior in high school, I was really torn between going to the seminary or going to art school. Art was something that I was fascinated by much longer. Since my earliest memories. My belief nowadays is sort of hocus pocus mumbo jumbo. But I think that beauty reveals itself to us through other people and their creative work. Creating opportunities for other people to share their creative stuff is kind of like hosting a church. So the open mic has become such an important thing for me. It feels like I'm doing all the things that some community leaders, some sort of minister, chaplain, or somebody would. But I'm not really espousing any system to them at all other than being polite to each other and listening. I think that aligns with my current worldview really well.
What would you say your current worldview is?
OH MAN. I CAN'T MAKE ANY FIRM JUDGMENTS ABOUT ANYTHING. MY ASSESSMENT OF THE SITUATION KEEPS COMING BACK TO JUST THE NEED FOR KINDNESS. I CAN'T SPEND TOO MUCH TIME WORRYING ABOUT WHY WE EXIST OR ANYTHING BECAUSE I'M JUST SO OVERWHELMED WITH THE NEED TO PRACTICE BETTER KINDNESS. I FEEL LIKE NO MATTER HOW YOU DO IT, THERE'S ALWAYS WAYS TO DO IT BETTER. JUST GOTTA BE UNASSUMING AND GENTLE.
What are some other ways you do that in your life?
Hmm. For awhile I was a part of- this is so similar but it does provide context. Before I was in the open mic, I was a part of a songwriters group who would meet weekly and it was much like the open mic, but it was kind of a set group of people. Three or four people. We would just each share either a written piece or a song or something. I don't know. I think creative acceptance is a huge thing. It's really rewarding to feel accepted by another person, especially someone who is also making stuff. I dunno what advice I have for people who don't feel the need to be creative.
I SUPPOSE THERE'S JUST OTHER WAYS TO PRACTICE ACCEPTANCE AND TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER. BEING CREATIVE A FUNNY THING. SOMETIMES IT DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY SEEM LIKE IT'S DOING MUCH. IT MIGHT EVEN SEEM LIKE A SELF-SERVING PRACTICE. I GRAPPLE WITH THAT A LOT. OFTEN I'M CONVINCED THAT I'M NOT REALLY HELPING. BUT I FEEL LIKE AT THE VERY LEAST, MAKING OTHER PEOPLE FEEL LIKE THEIR FEELINGS ARE LEGITIMATE IS A GOOD THING.
What do you do when you're worried that you're not helping? Is there something you tell yourself that helps with that feeling?
If I'm worried I'm not helping because I'm just focusing on being a songwriter or an artist or something I try to find a concrete way to help somebody. I know some other artists who are really struggling financially these days, so I've loaned money to people a couple of times. Even making something for somebody. Not as a means of an outlet. It isn't something I'm making to console my sad little heart or something. If I intentionally go outside of myself and make a card for a friend or something, that usually helps remedy the weird narcissism feeling. I know some artists who are really, really sold on the analog construction thing. I don't know if she wants me to say her name, but this friend of mine, I met with her a few times just to talk about art and everything she does is pretty much handmade. I asked her about that and she said that it's about
A HANDMADE WORK OF ART HAS MORE ENERGY. THE PRESENTATION OF AN IDEA, THE IDEA ITSELF, WHATEVER IT IS, THE MENTAL IMAGE THAT YOU GET WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PIECE IS ONE THING. BUT OTHER THAN THAT, THERE'S THE PROCESS. I FEEL LIKE THE EVIDENCE OF THE PROCESS COMMUNICATE SOMETHING ELSE. I THINK THAT'S PART OF THE EQUATION WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERING A WORK. OR WHETHER OR NOT IT MOVES YOU, IT HAS TO DO WITH THE MESSAGE COMMUNICATED INITIALLY, THE SUPERFICIAL, OR WHATEVER THAT IS. AND THEN THERE'S THE DEEPER MESSAGE, WHICH IS COMMUNICATED BY THE PROCESS THE ARTISTS CHOSE.
I think that there are some messages that are best delivered by some automatic or non handmade means. Some messages are best delivered by a digital, removed process I guess. But energy, human energy, really is conveyed if it's hand stitched, if it's hand painted. Really if you see evidence of time and toil. I feel like I'm going to get back into spiritual mumbo jumbo but really you can't commodify or monetize. There's no way to really figure out how valuable human time is and effort. I'm always really excited by analog anything cause it hints at that truth. It reaffirms what everyone's been doing for a long time. Giving other people sketchbooks is one of my new favorite things to do. Cause it's kinda like telling someone 'your thoughts are worth it. Write them down. I don't need to see them, but I want you to see how cool your thoughts are'.
Do you want to talk a little bit about your band?
Music is a really unique type of art. I never really thought about it the way that I think about fine art until more recently. Being in a band is an interesting opportunity. Band music, I guess, like garage rock music or music that's made up of young people getting together and spending time with their instruments together- you just kinda start writing songs. I feel like it lines up really well with the processes that I was told about for inspiration. The processes that painters go through sitting in their studios alone- you have to kind of confront things that are at the back of your mind. Doing that with a group of people is a really healthy thing I think. I dunno, in college I would always spend long nights in the painting studio beating my head against a wall, trying to figure out what I want to make. Which is fine. Sometimes I like that. And I guess a painting is never quite the same as a song or a live band experience. They're very different. I find myself trying to think about them analogously- like they're homogenous. They're just two different types of the same type of expression. Just one is more ephemeral and one is more experiential or something. But my band In The Pines- we live together, in this house, and when we first moved into this house like two summers ago, we set the basement up as a studio, like a music studio. We recorded an album down there with what microphones we had. That received some nice feedback. And we just recorded another album. We're trying to figure out what the cover artwork will be. When you're in a collaborative setting you're trying to figure out what everybody wants. But I'm really thankful for the opportunity. Sometimes it's frustrating, but it's mostly really rewarding. Being in a band, as opposed to say being like a DJ or a beat maker or something, I guess that's another analog construction thing. It has to do with what you value and what culture you are choosing to participate in.
How would you define your community?
I just want to like preface and say that I try to let the community kind of happened to me. I'm a person who perceives instead of judges I guess. I wait for an answer instead of trying to apply an answer to what it already is. So I feel like my community is probably defined by- I participate in a lot of communities. I'm on the web. I'm in Cincinnati. I'm from Dayton. There are elements of my community that are nationwide, worldwide. There are elements of my community that are just this street. The community that I service with the open mic is definitely Clifton-central. Centered around this drag of Ludlow Avenue. But anybody from Cincinnati, or I've had people come to the open mic who were from Florida. Just traveling and they stopped in. I feel like all these communities sort of exist around me. I just kind of bump against them and I'm really thankful for it. But my tendency as an artist is kind of to stay as an observer. I suppose it has prevented me from becoming overly active in any particular community. I'm not overly political, not overly religious. I participate in those conversations when I have to. I prefer it when it's no politics and no existential talk. That's why the open mic is perfect. It's just about the people that are in the room with you and what they have to say and entertaining them. I love that. It's just storytelling. It's what humans love doing. A community that exists outside of me, but that I do participate in is the music scene of Cincinnati, which is becoming really cool. And by cool I just mean that you see a lot of the same faces. Maybe because it's a smaller city, but I also think it's because the people who are engaged in it are really engaged. They go to each other's shows. They appear at gatherings. It creates a sort of family, these reoccurring characters, these people who are all just committed to being involved.
I would definitely like to hear more about that from you. I've done a couple of conversations where we talked a little bit about the Cincy scene, so I'd love to get your perspective on.
I have mostly praise for it. Thankfully I haven't encountered anything weird.
What does that mean?
I don't know, just like big manipulative personalities or anything like that. I think that thankfully, I don't know if we can attribute it to being in the Midwest or something, but I think people really mild mannered.
Mild mannered. How Midwest.
EVERYONE'S PRETTY NICE IN CINCINNATI. SO IF THEY NOTICE SOMEONE BEING REALLY ABUSIVE OR SCARY OR TOXIC, IT USUALLY GETS DEALT WITH PRETTY QUICKLY. CAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T INTERESTED IN PUTTING UP WITH THAT I THINK. DESPITE BEING MILD MANNERED. EVERYONE REALIZES THAT IF YOU PUT UP WITH AN ABUSER OR A MANIPULATIVE CHARACTER, YOU'RE EXPOSING EVERYONE ELSE TO IT FOR A LONGER PERIOD OF TIME TOO.
So taking action soon is a thing. But thankfully I don't notice it a lot. Everyone's just mostly really supportive. And you have to be. I put together a little show this past Friday where I played solo. Normally that wouldn't fly. I don't play out a lot. I don't have much of a music fan base or something, but it worked out because I just know other people who would probably want to play and I just let them know like, 'hey, I got a date at this place. Let's throw a little party'. I don't know. I think it's really easy for outsiders to become a part of it. There are people I'm meeting all the time that are just out of high school or something like that, and they're just trying to start a band. They're trying to be involved in the scene and all it takes is you have to show up. These people, these young people, I'll just see them at one show and then for the next few months they keep showing up at places. I don't know, I usually have no reason not to like them. And it's not really my call whether they get to participate at all or whatever. It's one of those things, it's kind of like the open mic, where everyone's getting together and there's no pressing problem that they're trying to solve. And so people's personalities just kind of naturally shine anyways.
That's interesting. I've actually heard a lot of negative critique about the Cincy music scene from everyone that I've spoken with about it so far.
I wonder what's wrong.
I think it's mostly accessibility wise.
Yeah. My opinion comes from some privilege I imagine. Being in a band of a whole bunch of cis men is probably a little easier. But I don't know. I've also just been lucky. People don't approach me in a negative way or anything like that. For the most part people are nice. That's all I really have to say. Feeling safe- I don't know, I hardly ever feel safe.
What does that mean?
Um, I'm a nervous wreck. So being involved in music, I've just kind of had to shut that voice in my head off when I go out. That's not good advice for anybody.
Does it sometimes make you anxious to be in those spaces?
There are spaces outside of Cincy where I felt actually truly anxious. But Cincinnati, for the most part, there's a couple of venues that I'm not really fond of, but it's mostly just kind of the atmosphere. It's not really the crowd. But sometimes it is the crowd. I don't know what to do. I just kind of keep my head down.
-
Hmm. Safety. Depending on- I guess some venues it would be easy to be like trapped in a corner by somebody weird or something like that. Some places that would be easier than others. But for the most part I feel like in Cincinnati, people call shit out when something's awry or it doesn't look right. I know that that's not always what happens., What other negative things have you heard?
Actually one thing that you said exactly, somebody else said in a negative way. You said it's a lot of the same people. Like you see a lot of the same people at the different venues or performing or whatever. And one critique that, I don't remember who said it, was that it can be really insular and difficult to break into. You go to a show and it's the same five white guys performing every time.
Hmm.
It's an interesting different perspective that it's almost the same thing that is just seen differently by different people.
Like that that type of behavior is repeated?
Yeah.
Hmm. Dang. I think the insular, or the the small community aspect, that's an interesting critique. I dunno though. Like the people that you saw the last time that you were out, say if you keep noticing the same people that's easier to notice than the new people that you see each time.
That's very true.
Yeah. I dunno. Talking critique wise about a scene is a fascinating thing. Because it's not an entity that is aware of itself really.
I dunno, I've heard specifically artists talk about how a scene can be a living being and it's like this conglomerate of a bunch of different minds in one space.
Oh of course. In the hive mind aspect it's definitely alive. It can be self aware I suppose. But without a leader or without an organization of some kind of feel like it's hard to hold a scene responsible. Unless everybody collectively chooses to ignore something or choose to allow something.
Yeah. Because a scene is just made up of people. And sometimes people do good things or bad things. That doesn't necessarily make them that. You know, you can't essentialize it and say 'now they're a good person or bad person'. What?
I dunno, I'm having terrible flashbacks of this place that I played at a couple times in Athens, Ohio. It was a biker bar called The Smiling Skull and it was full of perverts and coke heads and it was just scary.
That sounds scary.
Yeah. I brought a girlfriend of mine at the time and I heard like three or four different instances of people commenting on her looks like in the room. It felt pretty gross.
Have you ever seen stuff like that in Cincinnati?
No. Well... no. Not that I have a story of. It may have happened, but it didn't impact me the way that it did there. Some of that stuff is generational. I feel like a lot of millennial people are way more conscious of stuff or just considerate. Maybe shy. Maybe it isn't that they're overly considerate, but they just have this technological isolation instilled into them. So they don't say stuff.
They keep it to themselves.
They keep it to themselves. But maybe people are just as bad in this generation. They just are a little bit less vocal. But stuff gets worse as you get into more shows, concerts with bands. Open mics by nature tend to be pretty polite because no one act is playing for all that long. So there's a lot of interruptions and a lot of opportunities to check in with the room.
I appreciate the vulnerability that exists at open mics as opposed to a gig.
Yeah, if someone was being a weird asshole or a perv or something at an open mic, I hope it would be kind of obvious and it would be quickly dealt with.
Have you never felt uncomfortable at one of your open mics?
I've felt uncomfortable, but mostly because of anxiety. I've felt objectified. But that almost will always happen when you're on a stage.