Friendship Star
Stars are a recurring motif in quilt design. This simple star design fits perfectly within the themes of this project and this interview in particular. It represents friendship, communication, guidance, and light.
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Bryn Hastings
Spiritual Idea-Haver
Bryn Hastings is a DAAP grad and graphic designer in Cincinnati. She has spend time learning about religious traditions in order to form her own thoughts on how the world should work. We talked about the innate existence of community and how to pursue a deeper understanding of the world around us while suspending the human tendency towards dogma.
Let’s start this off with you saying your name, your pronouns, and why you think I asked you to be part of this project.
Okay. My name is Bryn, my preferred pronouns are she/her. I feel like I’m here because you’re connecting with human beings and I’m a human being. I feel like every person you talk to is going to have a different perspective and set of ideas and I just happen to be one of those.
Definitely. I’m talking to a lot of people who are involved in their community, who work for nonprofits, who do analog fabrication things. I think you’re a person who cares about the impact you make on others, who is very aware of your community in certain different ways. So I thought talking to you would be awesome.
Cool. I do believe one of the big things I hold onto in my life is that conversation is education. We are building the world that we inhabit through the way that we connect to other people. That’s something I think is really cool about your project. You have this intentional space for community and connection. I guess that’s something that people in this age of immediate connection and being able to be in constant contact with people, carving out a space to have an interaction is something that is not common. Maybe it is. I don’t know.
I t’s important and it’s enjoyable. I especially think that in Cincinnati, and I’m sure in lots of places, the community that one person has access to can be really limited. You can get stuck hearing a lot of the same ideas and knowing a lot of the same types of people. I think that putting these experiences online is just a small way to open up that chamber.
I’m very curious to see how it’s going to evolve.
Definitely. One question that I’m asking everyone who’s involved in this is: what would you define as your community? Is it a geographic location? Is it a group of people who have the same interests? What is your community to you?
I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ANSWERS THAT COME TO MIND WHEN YOU ASK ME THAT. THERE’S MY PERSONAL COMMUNITY, WHICH IS THE PEOPLE WHO I CHOOSE TO SPEND TIME WITH. THIS WEB OF CONNECTIONS OF MY FRIENDS AND THE PEOPLE WHO I CHOOSE TO HAVE IN MY LIFE AT ANY GIVEN TIME. MY RELATIONSHIPS. AND THEN THE OTHER COMMUNITY IS THE ONE THAT I’M IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDED BY THAT I’M MAYBE NOT CONNECTED TO EVER. FOR INSTANCE I’M SITTING ON MY FIRE ESCAPE RIGHT NOW JUST LOOKING OUT AROUND CLIFTON. I’M LOOKING AT MY NEIGHBOR’S HOUSE. I’VE NEVER TALKED TO THEM BEFORE BUT I FEEL LIKE WE ARE IN THIS EXPERIENCE TOGETHER. WE’RE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN CLIFTON. THEY PROBABLY FEED THE SAME STRAY CATS THAT I DO. JUST BECAUSE I’M NOT CONNECTED TO THAT PERSON CONVERSATIONALLY OR IN A RELATIONSHIP, WE ARE CONNECTED IN THE WAY THAT WE LIVE AND THE PLACE THAT WE LIVE. WE’RE BOTH EXPERIENCING THIS BEAUTIFUL DAY TODAY.
I guess I think of community as my intentional one that I build in my personal relationships and the one that I’m part of simply existing in the world. Everyone is a part of that second type of community. Whether you want to be or not. You can say ‘I’m not connected to my neighbors’ or whatever it might be. But you are. By existing.
That’s so interesting. I don’t think that’s an answer that I’ve gotten from anybody else so far. I really like that answer. How do you think your community has been affected by all these new changes in the world?
Hmmm. Well, I know that my friendship community is one that really likes to stay close. We’re always around each other. We make art and spend a lot of time together and I have not seen them in like two weeks. Two or three weeks. Which is kind of unprecedented. My community of people who I interact with has been reduced to myself and my boyfriend living in my house. So that’s the clear impact. We’re not physically around each other anymore. We’re having to find different ways to connect. We play little apps and games and stuff. We find new ways to have those connections. As for my Clifton community, it’s actually been really interesting. The cars on the street don’t move. I know that people are hunkered in their houses right now. Sometimes when I’m sitting out here I’ll see my neighbors to the left making breakfast or something through their kitchen window. I’m just thinking about everybody being really hunkered down in our little bubbles. We’re like a community of little bubbles.
That’s very true. I think a lot of people are feeling community in the isolation right now.
I’m definitely not connected to anyone around me in that I have not had conversations with any of these people. But I feel like the feelings are similar. That’s the thing I keep finding myself saying to people who are disappointed about graduation and DAAPWorks being cancelled. It’s absolutely a massive bummer. But at least we’re not unique in having these situations thrust upon us. At least everyone is getting fucked equally right now. At least we’re being fucked as a planet. The Queen of England is getting fucked just as much as… I guess I was about to compare a homeless person to the Queen of England, who have incredibly different circumstances. Obviously they’re not getting fucked in the same way, but they are both still feeling the repercussions of this global situation right now. And that’s a community in a way.
That’s very true. There’s this one thing that’s changing everybody’s lives. At least nobody needs to feel alone in that way.
Yeah. It’s inescapable. Regardless of how much you hate it.
I think that you may be one of the most positive feeling people since this has started. Everyone else I’ve talked to is pretty bummed and pretty upset about their lives changing. But you don’t seem to put out those vibes.
No. I feel kind of weird saying it. But I’ve sort of been enjoying this. Partially because I’ve been coming from a place of privilege of not having to worry about my job right now. Being a graphic designer, I can work from home very easily. The agency that I work for is very good about communication. I feel very connected to my team in that respect still. So I’m not worried financially. Which I think is something that’s a huge burden that’s not on my shoulders right now. I really feel for everyone who is shouldering that massive upheaval that has nothing to do with them. People are losing their jobs regardless of how talented and dedicated they are. This thing is completely beyond their control. But outside of that, I’ve just been sitting at my house, cooking food, watering my plants. It’s kind of exciting in a way. This crazy thing is happening and we just have to wait it out and see what happens. I kind of have an air of curiosity about everything.
I AM LUCKY TO NOT HAVE HAD ANY DIRECT NEGATIVE IMPACT FROM THIS. NO ONE I KNOW IS SICK AT THE MOMENT. I KNOW THAT CAN CHANGE QUICKLY, BUT I GUESS FOR RIGHT NOT I’M JUST FEELING A SENSE OF CURIOSITY TOWARDS THE WHOLE THING. WE ARE IN A PRETTY OPPRESSIVE SITUATION AND I AM VERY CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AS THIS CONTINUES TO UNFOLD.
It is a time of change. Do you think there is a run-out date for how long you’ll feel that way? Are you going to get antsy at some point?
I think I will. Things that could change this would be if someone who I love gets sick. Then I’d be worried for them. That would give things a tangibility that right now I’m a little bit unconnected to. I’m aware that people are having physical health ramifications. I haven’t experienced that firsthand. That doesn’t diminish the intensity of it. But that would drive it home- if someone who I knew got sick.
Have you noticed any smaller ways that your life has changed?
Well, someone who was previously no living under the title of ‘boyfriend’ started living with me. Like two weeks ago. So that’s been fun. We just hang out. I think that’s probably a big thing. The two of us are kind of in our own world a little bit. Working from home has been really bizarre. There is no differentiation between my apartment and work. When I ‘get off work’ I just go sit on the couch. That’s been kind of weird. Everything is blurring together. It’s such a weird, unprecedented situation. But I’m not really trying to compare it to my regular life. I’m just like ‘what is this thing?’ I don’t know just kind of feel it. Whatever it is. If that makes sense.
Definitely. Did you have this person move in for safety reasons? So you could still see each other?
Yeah. He actually is considered essential at his job. They wanted him to keep working but he took PTO for two weeks. He works in Great American Tower, and he was like ‘I do not want to deal with that’. And now this is going to keep happening and he has to go back to work next week. I don’t know what that’s going to be like. It’s uncertain what’ll happen when he goes back into work. I think we’ve just been staying here because we were like, ‘this seems like a fun thing to do. It’s kind of apocalyptic out there so let’s hang out’.
That makes sense. It feels more comfortable, I’m sure, to have another person there with you.
Yeah, I think it makes a huge difference. I think if I was alone right now I would be more aware of the time passing. I would feel like a lot more time has passed if I didn’t have another person with me.
The world seems kind of like it’s on fire sometimes.
YEAH. IT’S FUNNY BECAUSE FROM WHERE I’M SITTING RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS A VERY LOVELY DAY. THERE’S NOTHING IN MY FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE OF THIS WORLD RIGHT NOW THAT IS TELLING ME THAT THERE’S CHAOS AND PANDEMIC. IT’S JUST THROUGH THE COMMUNICATION STREAMS THAT EVERYONE’S LIVES ARE CHANGED. EVEN WITHOUT FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE.
When I asked you to be part of this project, we talked about if you have any particular opinions or knowledge that you would like to share with the world. You did come up with one thing that you might want to talk about.
Yeah. I think I might need a little help wandering through this set of ideas because it is something that is pretty close to my identity. Because when you asked me I was thinking ‘what is something that I have a strong feeling about?’ I was just trying to think of something. Something that I feel really strongly about is how people interact with their own opinions on things and the way that some people will get an idea in their head and then will not respond to facts that don’t align with that world view. Because some of us have clung so tightly to an idea that our identity is wrapped up in it and truth would unseat my identity. For example, my dad was one of those people who was like ‘oh, coronavirus isn’t going to do anything. Nothing’s going to happen. They’re just blowing it out of proportion’. I have been sending him articles here and there. I was talking to him on the phone. He was talking about how it’s not that bad. I was like, ‘actually the death toll in the US is over 1,000 and a half at this point’. And he’s like ‘oh that’s worldwide’. No. I’m trying to tell him facts and they’re making him unhappy because he’s not willing to revise his previous idea of reality. I don’t know. That is a roundabout way of saying that something I do think about a lot and feel strongly about is people’s relationships with their beliefs. And people’s desire to never revisit those beliefs, but to simply hold them and champion them.
Would you say that you have a fairly flexible or adaptable worldview?
I would say so. It’s not always a positive thing because sometimes I feel like I see validity to a lot of different options and I’m not sure which one I even agree with because I’m trying too hard to understand all the different viewpoints but I’m not necessarily aligned with any of them. But I would say that I have a pretty fluid worldview.
YES. IT’S SOMETHING THAT I SEE. FOR INSTANCE, THE CONCEPT OF OBJECTIVE GOOD AND EVIL- IS IT OBJECTIVELY WRONG TO HARM A PERSON IN THE EYES OF THE UNIVERSE? SOMETIMES I WANT TO STATE THAT OF COURSE IT’S WRONG TO HARM A HUMAN BEING. BUT THEN IF WE ZOOM OUT TO THE UNCARING, INFINITELY EXPANDING, ALL POWERFUL UNIVERSE- WHAT DOES THE UNIVERSE THINK ABOUT THAT? DOES OBJECTIVE RIGHT AND WRONG EXIST? I DON’T KNOW THAT THERE IS AN ANSWER TO THAT. THERE’S DEFINITELY A SOCIAL RIGHT AND WRONG. I KNOW WHAT I’VE BEEN SOCIALIZED TO BELIEVE IS RIGHT AND WRONG. I DO HOLD THOSE AS PRINCIPLES.
But then sometimes when I zoom out to the macro-view I’m like ‘well how does that inform my micro-view? I don’t know. Maybe it’s overthinking. Sometimes I do definitely find that I’m not sure where to align myself. I’ll get lost in arguments because I’m considering what someone is saying. I’m like, ‘shit, I don’t even know what I believe about this anymore’. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s always a positive thing. But I do think that some people could learn to flex those muscles and not be scared of these things.
Do you have any views that are contrary to this? Do you have something that you guiltily feel really strongly about? That you’re maybe too dogmatic on?
Right now I’m a really big Bernie Sanders person. I’m very aligned with him. It’s interesting even in my strong support of him I think it’s because of his greater worldview. It’s not like I’m going to take a policy and be against his approach to x, y, z. I do agree with him on a policy level, but more importantly on a worldview level. I think that the world that he envisions and the world that he fights for is one that I’m aligned with. I know that the minutia is ways to move us toward this worldview that I believe in. I really feel his big picture. It’s one of equality for all people, and ‘fuck corporations’.
Is there any information that could change that opinion for you?
I do view him as someone who I think is really honest and genuine and that’s something I really respect about him. I think if they were like oh, Bernie actually does have affiliation with a corporation that I believe is using money for evil- I do believe that corporations put money above the human experience of living- then that’s something I’m opposed to. But that’s something that I think Bernie is very strong on. If it came out that he was alienating me with something that I feel is part of his core worldview then I would be like ‘damn dude, I trusted you and now my trust is shaken. Who are you?’
So he’s someone that you support but he’s not an idol figure in your head? There are things that could happen that would change your opinion still.
The thing is I don’t think that I will ever be presented with that information. That’s part of the reason why I do feel very strongly about him. I don’t think he is the type of person where that would come out. I’m just reserving the possibility that it is something that would make me change my opinion of him. Not saying that it’s going to happen or something that I worry about happening. I don’t think that there’s anything that I’m like ‘nothing could change my mind about this’. I am trying to think of an example. If God literally came out of the heavens and was like ‘Christianity is right’ I would be like ‘damn dog… big plot twist… I totally didn’t think that’.
It would take some holy proof for this information.
Yeah, straight up divine intervention. It would have to be something very grand and intense to make me put myself in the tiny tiny tiny box of organized religion. I think those are some of the tiniest boxes you can choose to live in.
Why?
RELIGION IS A VERY BIG PART OF IDENTITY SO WHEN YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THE BOX OF CHOOSING TO ALIGN WITH A RELIGION IT CHANGES THE WAY THAT YOU MIGHT INTERACT WITH OTHER INFORMATION. PEOPLE WHO PUT THEMSELVES IN THE ORGANIZED RELIGION BOX- THE BOX ITSELF TELLS YOU THE WAY YOU NEED TO INTERACT WITH CERTAIN THINGS. SO YOU LOSE CRITICAL THOUGHT ON SOME LEVEL IF YOU’RE TRULY BEING THIS ORGANIZED RELIGION PERSON AND YOU’RE ACTUALLY BELIEVING ALL THE THINGS THEY TELL YOU TO BELIEVE. I DON’T WANT TO USE THE WORD BRAINWASHED. BUT IF YOU’RE CHOOSING TO BELIEVE IN ORGANIZED RELIGION YOU ARE CHOOSING TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU INTERACT WITH INFORMATION THAT COMES TO YOU. THEORETICALLY THAT RELIGION SHOULD SUPERSEDE.
I’ll use gay rights as an example. Even if personally you believe gay rights are something that should be supported, if you are religious, then really you should follow that religion more than your heart of hearts. Because aren’t you afraid of hell or something? I don’t know. The whole thing is such a fear-based trap. People really get caught up in it from a fear perspective. From a life and death perspective. From an identity perspective it’s such a huge thing. People get very scared of unseating it because the doubt is very scary to people sometimes. They’re like ‘if I even entertain that am I doubting my religion? Does that mean I’m gonna go to hell?’ The steaks are very high for people who believe that. It really forces you to treat information in a certain way when it comes into your little box.
DO YOU THINK THAT YOU’RE A PERSON WHO’S AFRAID OF DOUBT?
NO. I THINK TO ADMIT THAT YOU ARE DOUBTING SOMETHING IS SHOWING THE INTERNAL MECHANISM OF YOUR MIND. IT’S SAYING ‘I DON’T MIND SHOWING YOU THE WORK-IN-PROGRESS OF THIS THOUGHT. I AM DOUBTING MYSELF RIGHT NOW’. VERSUS HAVING THIS THOUGHT AT THE READY, WHICH I THINK IS NOT ALWAYS AN HONEST REACTION TO THINGS, BUT IT IS ONE THAT PEOPLE OFTEN WANT TO GIVE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO APPEAR SOLID.
So you don’t find that it’s shaky for you? I think that’s so so common. The idea that ‘if I don’t have the answers then I’m afraid’.
I feel like there’s not answers for most things. The answers are what you decide the answers are. Whatever you land on is the answer that lives inside your mind. Sometimes there isn’t one. That’s just ok.
I would definitely say that a core of Bryn the person, and something that I’ve seen pretty frequently since I’ve known you, is this thing that you say. ‘Always question your beliefs. If there’s new information, acknowledge that’. You work at Hyperquake and I think one of your quotes on the ‘about me’ page is- what is it?
It says ‘Objective reality does not exist. Interrogate your worldview often’.
Exactly. This is something that’s definitely tied to you as a person. How do you espouse that in the world around you and share that with other people?
I think that sometimes it comes out as me being an antagonist. Someone will say ‘this, that, and the other’ and I’m like ‘oh, but what if this?’. Maybe a concrete example would help that. But I feel like it comes out as poking at people. It really is just little moments. When your worldview is this big, solid thing that can’t be moved, maybe it’s very heavy, but when you poke it you find out that it’s gelatinous and it shakes. Little moments are where you have the opportunity to startle someone or plant a tiny seed that grows into something. I do think it’s little moments. Sitting down and saying ‘I feel that your political worldview is inconsistent with your religious views’. Which is how I feel about my dad. My dad is like ‘I believe the point of human existence is for all people to achieve personal enlightenment, to share spiritual education and for everyone to transcend to their purest, truest selves’. And then he’s also like ‘I don’t think that people deserve a living wage. Billionaires work for everything that they have so they should keep what they have’. There’s incongruity here. If the purpose of life is for people to find their truest selves and then there are people who are so lacking in something as shitty as money that they are not able to have the health to pursue that. They’re starving. They can’t think about their purpose in life. They’re not attuned to the universe when they’re literally trying to figure out how to feed their kids. It really frustrates me. I don’t know… I got lost because it’s very triggering to think about my dad.
Is that a conversation that you try to have with him?
Yeah all the time. It’s a problem because he’s someone who it really bothers me with. I know that he’s a really smart person. He’s read a lot of books. He’s considered a lot of viewpoints. And then he somehow landed in this one??? I don’t get it. Why is money the driving force for your political ideology when your profound spiritual world is about the empowerment of every person on the planet? Do you not see the incongruity here? How do we make these two things marry up? We’ve been having this conversation for so long that it’s so big that it just snowballs every time I think about it.
ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH DOING THAT IN MOST SITUATIONS?
YES. I THINK I’M TOO COMFORTABLE. PEOPLE DO GET UNCOMFORTABLE. AND I KIND OF ENVY THAT SOMETIMES. THAT SOMEONE HAS A BELIEF SO TRUE TO THEM THAT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS ‘WELL HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE’ IT SHAKES THEM. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.
I’m really trying to think of something that I feel very strongly is true. Maybe a women’s right to choose. What’s something that would change my mind about that? I know that when I meet people who are very pro-life that’s a good opportunity to say ‘at what point do you believe a bundle of cells becomes a life?’ ‘Oh the bundle of cells is a life at the moment that they come together.’ ‘Why do you believe that? What’s the difference between that bundle of cells and another one?’ The thing is, a divine act of intervention would be the thing that would probably change my mind on that. I feel like most of my opinions tend toward letting people solve their problems versus trying to have an answer ready for them. Because when you have an answer ready you’re not doing service to the question.
If theoretically you were to have a divine interaction do you think that you would believe it or just think that someone slipped you some acid today?
That’s a really good question. Because come on, what’re the odds that something like that happens? I think it would depend on how I feel about it. The resonance of it. I have had experiences that are mystical and unexplainable when I was completely sober. I’ve had experiences that definitely had a tangible feeling of the bizarre and the true. It’s just something to consider. The thing is, even when there is a divine moment of truth that bestows itself upon me, it’s not going to be a light switch moment either. It’s something to consider. It’s something to factor in. Maybe I would end up being like ‘yeah I know God said Christianity is right but I still just can’t do it’. I don’t know what I would do. Maybe I am so entrenched in my belief that I am so personally opposed to the thought of organized religion. I do believe that you should interpret your questions. I don’t know. Men from thousands of years ago don’t know the answers to your questions. You should listen to the questions and think about how you feel about them. But people feel like Christians about them. Sorry, I’m working through these thoughts as I’m saying them.
So you would definitely not be categorized as a religious person. That’s for sure?
Definitely not.
Would you be categorized as a spiritual person?
Definitely. When I was little I went to a Catholic grade school. Not that my family is Catholic, it was just a Montessori school. I remember when I was younger wanting to be a Priest. Sometimes I still think I should run away and be a monk and meditate forever and never touch a screen again. I do feel very moved by the spiritual existence on this plane. I do think that is something that exists. I could be convinced that there is not a spiritual plane if that was how I felt. But I do feel truly that I am a spiritual person. That’s what I’ve experienced and read a lot about.
Do you continue to read a lot about it?
Yeah, I’ve always been really fascinated by it. That may also be where my opposition to organized religion comes from.
I HAVE FOUND FASCINATING THINGS IN BOOKS FROM C. S. LEWIS TO THE BHAGAVAD GITA WHICH ARE DIFFERENT ENDS OF THE SPIRITUAL SPECTRUM. MAYBE NOT TWO DIFFERENT ENDS, BUT TWO DIFFERENT REALMS IN THE SPIRITUAL SPHERE. IF I HAD ALIGNED WITH CHRISTIANITY AS A CHILD AND STAYED THERE, I WOULD HAVE NEVER COME ACROSS THESE PROFOUNDLY BEAUTIFUL IDEAS. THE THING THAT BOTHERS ME IS THAT YOU’RE SAYING ‘HERE ARE THE ANSWERS. THERE ARE NO MORE ANSWERS TO SEEK OUT’. BUT THERE ARE. THERE’S THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE. TO WRITE SOMETHING OFF BECAUSE IT DOESN’T FIT INTO THE BOX YOU’VE CHOSEN TO SIT IN MAKES ME SAD. THERE IS A LOT OF TRUTH THAT IS NOT CONTAINED IN THE BOX THAT YOU SIT IN.
Okay. My name is Bryn, my preferred pronouns are she/her. I feel like I’m here because you’re connecting with human beings and I’m a human being. I feel like every person you talk to is going to have a different perspective and set of ideas and I just happen to be one of those.
Definitely. I’m talking to a lot of people who are involved in their community, who work for nonprofits, who do analog fabrication things. I think you’re a person who cares about the impact you make on others, who is very aware of your community in certain different ways. So I thought talking to you would be awesome.
Cool. I do believe one of the big things I hold onto in my life is that conversation is education. We are building the world that we inhabit through the way that we connect to other people. That’s something I think is really cool about your project. You have this intentional space for community and connection. I guess that’s something that people in this age of immediate connection and being able to be in constant contact with people, carving out a space to have an interaction is something that is not common. Maybe it is. I don’t know.
I t’s important and it’s enjoyable. I especially think that in Cincinnati, and I’m sure in lots of places, the community that one person has access to can be really limited. You can get stuck hearing a lot of the same ideas and knowing a lot of the same types of people. I think that putting these experiences online is just a small way to open up that chamber.
I’m very curious to see how it’s going to evolve.
Definitely. One question that I’m asking everyone who’s involved in this is: what would you define as your community? Is it a geographic location? Is it a group of people who have the same interests? What is your community to you?
I FEEL LIKE THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT ANSWERS THAT COME TO MIND WHEN YOU ASK ME THAT. THERE’S MY PERSONAL COMMUNITY, WHICH IS THE PEOPLE WHO I CHOOSE TO SPEND TIME WITH. THIS WEB OF CONNECTIONS OF MY FRIENDS AND THE PEOPLE WHO I CHOOSE TO HAVE IN MY LIFE AT ANY GIVEN TIME. MY RELATIONSHIPS. AND THEN THE OTHER COMMUNITY IS THE ONE THAT I’M IMMEDIATELY SURROUNDED BY THAT I’M MAYBE NOT CONNECTED TO EVER. FOR INSTANCE I’M SITTING ON MY FIRE ESCAPE RIGHT NOW JUST LOOKING OUT AROUND CLIFTON. I’M LOOKING AT MY NEIGHBOR’S HOUSE. I’VE NEVER TALKED TO THEM BEFORE BUT I FEEL LIKE WE ARE IN THIS EXPERIENCE TOGETHER. WE’RE PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN CLIFTON. THEY PROBABLY FEED THE SAME STRAY CATS THAT I DO. JUST BECAUSE I’M NOT CONNECTED TO THAT PERSON CONVERSATIONALLY OR IN A RELATIONSHIP, WE ARE CONNECTED IN THE WAY THAT WE LIVE AND THE PLACE THAT WE LIVE. WE’RE BOTH EXPERIENCING THIS BEAUTIFUL DAY TODAY.
I guess I think of community as my intentional one that I build in my personal relationships and the one that I’m part of simply existing in the world. Everyone is a part of that second type of community. Whether you want to be or not. You can say ‘I’m not connected to my neighbors’ or whatever it might be. But you are. By existing.
That’s so interesting. I don’t think that’s an answer that I’ve gotten from anybody else so far. I really like that answer. How do you think your community has been affected by all these new changes in the world?
Hmmm. Well, I know that my friendship community is one that really likes to stay close. We’re always around each other. We make art and spend a lot of time together and I have not seen them in like two weeks. Two or three weeks. Which is kind of unprecedented. My community of people who I interact with has been reduced to myself and my boyfriend living in my house. So that’s the clear impact. We’re not physically around each other anymore. We’re having to find different ways to connect. We play little apps and games and stuff. We find new ways to have those connections. As for my Clifton community, it’s actually been really interesting. The cars on the street don’t move. I know that people are hunkered in their houses right now. Sometimes when I’m sitting out here I’ll see my neighbors to the left making breakfast or something through their kitchen window. I’m just thinking about everybody being really hunkered down in our little bubbles. We’re like a community of little bubbles.
That’s very true. I think a lot of people are feeling community in the isolation right now.
I’m definitely not connected to anyone around me in that I have not had conversations with any of these people. But I feel like the feelings are similar. That’s the thing I keep finding myself saying to people who are disappointed about graduation and DAAPWorks being cancelled. It’s absolutely a massive bummer. But at least we’re not unique in having these situations thrust upon us. At least everyone is getting fucked equally right now. At least we’re being fucked as a planet. The Queen of England is getting fucked just as much as… I guess I was about to compare a homeless person to the Queen of England, who have incredibly different circumstances. Obviously they’re not getting fucked in the same way, but they are both still feeling the repercussions of this global situation right now. And that’s a community in a way.
That’s very true. There’s this one thing that’s changing everybody’s lives. At least nobody needs to feel alone in that way.
Yeah. It’s inescapable. Regardless of how much you hate it.
I think that you may be one of the most positive feeling people since this has started. Everyone else I’ve talked to is pretty bummed and pretty upset about their lives changing. But you don’t seem to put out those vibes.
No. I feel kind of weird saying it. But I’ve sort of been enjoying this. Partially because I’ve been coming from a place of privilege of not having to worry about my job right now. Being a graphic designer, I can work from home very easily. The agency that I work for is very good about communication. I feel very connected to my team in that respect still. So I’m not worried financially. Which I think is something that’s a huge burden that’s not on my shoulders right now. I really feel for everyone who is shouldering that massive upheaval that has nothing to do with them. People are losing their jobs regardless of how talented and dedicated they are. This thing is completely beyond their control. But outside of that, I’ve just been sitting at my house, cooking food, watering my plants. It’s kind of exciting in a way. This crazy thing is happening and we just have to wait it out and see what happens. I kind of have an air of curiosity about everything.
I AM LUCKY TO NOT HAVE HAD ANY DIRECT NEGATIVE IMPACT FROM THIS. NO ONE I KNOW IS SICK AT THE MOMENT. I KNOW THAT CAN CHANGE QUICKLY, BUT I GUESS FOR RIGHT NOT I’M JUST FEELING A SENSE OF CURIOSITY TOWARDS THE WHOLE THING. WE ARE IN A PRETTY OPPRESSIVE SITUATION AND I AM VERY CURIOUS ABOUT WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN AS THIS CONTINUES TO UNFOLD.
It is a time of change. Do you think there is a run-out date for how long you’ll feel that way? Are you going to get antsy at some point?
I think I will. Things that could change this would be if someone who I love gets sick. Then I’d be worried for them. That would give things a tangibility that right now I’m a little bit unconnected to. I’m aware that people are having physical health ramifications. I haven’t experienced that firsthand. That doesn’t diminish the intensity of it. But that would drive it home- if someone who I knew got sick.
Have you noticed any smaller ways that your life has changed?
Well, someone who was previously no living under the title of ‘boyfriend’ started living with me. Like two weeks ago. So that’s been fun. We just hang out. I think that’s probably a big thing. The two of us are kind of in our own world a little bit. Working from home has been really bizarre. There is no differentiation between my apartment and work. When I ‘get off work’ I just go sit on the couch. That’s been kind of weird. Everything is blurring together. It’s such a weird, unprecedented situation. But I’m not really trying to compare it to my regular life. I’m just like ‘what is this thing?’ I don’t know just kind of feel it. Whatever it is. If that makes sense.
Definitely. Did you have this person move in for safety reasons? So you could still see each other?
Yeah. He actually is considered essential at his job. They wanted him to keep working but he took PTO for two weeks. He works in Great American Tower, and he was like ‘I do not want to deal with that’. And now this is going to keep happening and he has to go back to work next week. I don’t know what that’s going to be like. It’s uncertain what’ll happen when he goes back into work. I think we’ve just been staying here because we were like, ‘this seems like a fun thing to do. It’s kind of apocalyptic out there so let’s hang out’.
That makes sense. It feels more comfortable, I’m sure, to have another person there with you.
Yeah, I think it makes a huge difference. I think if I was alone right now I would be more aware of the time passing. I would feel like a lot more time has passed if I didn’t have another person with me.
The world seems kind of like it’s on fire sometimes.
YEAH. IT’S FUNNY BECAUSE FROM WHERE I’M SITTING RIGHT NOW IT SEEMS A VERY LOVELY DAY. THERE’S NOTHING IN MY FIRST-HAND EXPERIENCE OF THIS WORLD RIGHT NOW THAT IS TELLING ME THAT THERE’S CHAOS AND PANDEMIC. IT’S JUST THROUGH THE COMMUNICATION STREAMS THAT EVERYONE’S LIVES ARE CHANGED. EVEN WITHOUT FIRSTHAND EXPERIENCE.
When I asked you to be part of this project, we talked about if you have any particular opinions or knowledge that you would like to share with the world. You did come up with one thing that you might want to talk about.
Yeah. I think I might need a little help wandering through this set of ideas because it is something that is pretty close to my identity. Because when you asked me I was thinking ‘what is something that I have a strong feeling about?’ I was just trying to think of something. Something that I feel really strongly about is how people interact with their own opinions on things and the way that some people will get an idea in their head and then will not respond to facts that don’t align with that world view. Because some of us have clung so tightly to an idea that our identity is wrapped up in it and truth would unseat my identity. For example, my dad was one of those people who was like ‘oh, coronavirus isn’t going to do anything. Nothing’s going to happen. They’re just blowing it out of proportion’. I have been sending him articles here and there. I was talking to him on the phone. He was talking about how it’s not that bad. I was like, ‘actually the death toll in the US is over 1,000 and a half at this point’. And he’s like ‘oh that’s worldwide’. No. I’m trying to tell him facts and they’re making him unhappy because he’s not willing to revise his previous idea of reality. I don’t know. That is a roundabout way of saying that something I do think about a lot and feel strongly about is people’s relationships with their beliefs. And people’s desire to never revisit those beliefs, but to simply hold them and champion them.
Would you say that you have a fairly flexible or adaptable worldview?
I would say so. It’s not always a positive thing because sometimes I feel like I see validity to a lot of different options and I’m not sure which one I even agree with because I’m trying too hard to understand all the different viewpoints but I’m not necessarily aligned with any of them. But I would say that I have a pretty fluid worldview.
THAT’S REALLY INTERESTING. DO YOU THINK THAT MAYBE BELIEVING IN CHANGING YOUR OPINION CAN PREVENT YOU FROM- I DON’T KNOW, NOT BEING PRINCIPLED, BUT BEING ALIGNED IN A WAY?
YES. IT’S SOMETHING THAT I SEE. FOR INSTANCE, THE CONCEPT OF OBJECTIVE GOOD AND EVIL- IS IT OBJECTIVELY WRONG TO HARM A PERSON IN THE EYES OF THE UNIVERSE? SOMETIMES I WANT TO STATE THAT OF COURSE IT’S WRONG TO HARM A HUMAN BEING. BUT THEN IF WE ZOOM OUT TO THE UNCARING, INFINITELY EXPANDING, ALL POWERFUL UNIVERSE- WHAT DOES THE UNIVERSE THINK ABOUT THAT? DOES OBJECTIVE RIGHT AND WRONG EXIST? I DON’T KNOW THAT THERE IS AN ANSWER TO THAT. THERE’S DEFINITELY A SOCIAL RIGHT AND WRONG. I KNOW WHAT I’VE BEEN SOCIALIZED TO BELIEVE IS RIGHT AND WRONG. I DO HOLD THOSE AS PRINCIPLES.
But then sometimes when I zoom out to the macro-view I’m like ‘well how does that inform my micro-view? I don’t know. Maybe it’s overthinking. Sometimes I do definitely find that I’m not sure where to align myself. I’ll get lost in arguments because I’m considering what someone is saying. I’m like, ‘shit, I don’t even know what I believe about this anymore’. I wouldn’t necessarily say it’s always a positive thing. But I do think that some people could learn to flex those muscles and not be scared of these things.
Do you have any views that are contrary to this? Do you have something that you guiltily feel really strongly about? That you’re maybe too dogmatic on?
Right now I’m a really big Bernie Sanders person. I’m very aligned with him. It’s interesting even in my strong support of him I think it’s because of his greater worldview. It’s not like I’m going to take a policy and be against his approach to x, y, z. I do agree with him on a policy level, but more importantly on a worldview level. I think that the world that he envisions and the world that he fights for is one that I’m aligned with. I know that the minutia is ways to move us toward this worldview that I believe in. I really feel his big picture. It’s one of equality for all people, and ‘fuck corporations’.
Is there any information that could change that opinion for you?
I do view him as someone who I think is really honest and genuine and that’s something I really respect about him. I think if they were like oh, Bernie actually does have affiliation with a corporation that I believe is using money for evil- I do believe that corporations put money above the human experience of living- then that’s something I’m opposed to. But that’s something that I think Bernie is very strong on. If it came out that he was alienating me with something that I feel is part of his core worldview then I would be like ‘damn dude, I trusted you and now my trust is shaken. Who are you?’
So he’s someone that you support but he’s not an idol figure in your head? There are things that could happen that would change your opinion still.
The thing is I don’t think that I will ever be presented with that information. That’s part of the reason why I do feel very strongly about him. I don’t think he is the type of person where that would come out. I’m just reserving the possibility that it is something that would make me change my opinion of him. Not saying that it’s going to happen or something that I worry about happening. I don’t think that there’s anything that I’m like ‘nothing could change my mind about this’. I am trying to think of an example. If God literally came out of the heavens and was like ‘Christianity is right’ I would be like ‘damn dog… big plot twist… I totally didn’t think that’.
It would take some holy proof for this information.
Yeah, straight up divine intervention. It would have to be something very grand and intense to make me put myself in the tiny tiny tiny box of organized religion. I think those are some of the tiniest boxes you can choose to live in.
Why?
RELIGION IS A VERY BIG PART OF IDENTITY SO WHEN YOU PUT YOURSELF IN THE BOX OF CHOOSING TO ALIGN WITH A RELIGION IT CHANGES THE WAY THAT YOU MIGHT INTERACT WITH OTHER INFORMATION. PEOPLE WHO PUT THEMSELVES IN THE ORGANIZED RELIGION BOX- THE BOX ITSELF TELLS YOU THE WAY YOU NEED TO INTERACT WITH CERTAIN THINGS. SO YOU LOSE CRITICAL THOUGHT ON SOME LEVEL IF YOU’RE TRULY BEING THIS ORGANIZED RELIGION PERSON AND YOU’RE ACTUALLY BELIEVING ALL THE THINGS THEY TELL YOU TO BELIEVE. I DON’T WANT TO USE THE WORD BRAINWASHED. BUT IF YOU’RE CHOOSING TO BELIEVE IN ORGANIZED RELIGION YOU ARE CHOOSING TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU INTERACT WITH INFORMATION THAT COMES TO YOU. THEORETICALLY THAT RELIGION SHOULD SUPERSEDE.
I’ll use gay rights as an example. Even if personally you believe gay rights are something that should be supported, if you are religious, then really you should follow that religion more than your heart of hearts. Because aren’t you afraid of hell or something? I don’t know. The whole thing is such a fear-based trap. People really get caught up in it from a fear perspective. From a life and death perspective. From an identity perspective it’s such a huge thing. People get very scared of unseating it because the doubt is very scary to people sometimes. They’re like ‘if I even entertain that am I doubting my religion? Does that mean I’m gonna go to hell?’ The steaks are very high for people who believe that. It really forces you to treat information in a certain way when it comes into your little box.
DO YOU THINK THAT YOU’RE A PERSON WHO’S AFRAID OF DOUBT?
NO. I THINK TO ADMIT THAT YOU ARE DOUBTING SOMETHING IS SHOWING THE INTERNAL MECHANISM OF YOUR MIND. IT’S SAYING ‘I DON’T MIND SHOWING YOU THE WORK-IN-PROGRESS OF THIS THOUGHT. I AM DOUBTING MYSELF RIGHT NOW’. VERSUS HAVING THIS THOUGHT AT THE READY, WHICH I THINK IS NOT ALWAYS AN HONEST REACTION TO THINGS, BUT IT IS ONE THAT PEOPLE OFTEN WANT TO GIVE BECAUSE THEY WANT TO APPEAR SOLID.
So you don’t find that it’s shaky for you? I think that’s so so common. The idea that ‘if I don’t have the answers then I’m afraid’.
I feel like there’s not answers for most things. The answers are what you decide the answers are. Whatever you land on is the answer that lives inside your mind. Sometimes there isn’t one. That’s just ok.
I would definitely say that a core of Bryn the person, and something that I’ve seen pretty frequently since I’ve known you, is this thing that you say. ‘Always question your beliefs. If there’s new information, acknowledge that’. You work at Hyperquake and I think one of your quotes on the ‘about me’ page is- what is it?
It says ‘Objective reality does not exist. Interrogate your worldview often’.
Exactly. This is something that’s definitely tied to you as a person. How do you espouse that in the world around you and share that with other people?
I think that sometimes it comes out as me being an antagonist. Someone will say ‘this, that, and the other’ and I’m like ‘oh, but what if this?’. Maybe a concrete example would help that. But I feel like it comes out as poking at people. It really is just little moments. When your worldview is this big, solid thing that can’t be moved, maybe it’s very heavy, but when you poke it you find out that it’s gelatinous and it shakes. Little moments are where you have the opportunity to startle someone or plant a tiny seed that grows into something. I do think it’s little moments. Sitting down and saying ‘I feel that your political worldview is inconsistent with your religious views’. Which is how I feel about my dad. My dad is like ‘I believe the point of human existence is for all people to achieve personal enlightenment, to share spiritual education and for everyone to transcend to their purest, truest selves’. And then he’s also like ‘I don’t think that people deserve a living wage. Billionaires work for everything that they have so they should keep what they have’. There’s incongruity here. If the purpose of life is for people to find their truest selves and then there are people who are so lacking in something as shitty as money that they are not able to have the health to pursue that. They’re starving. They can’t think about their purpose in life. They’re not attuned to the universe when they’re literally trying to figure out how to feed their kids. It really frustrates me. I don’t know… I got lost because it’s very triggering to think about my dad.
Is that a conversation that you try to have with him?
Yeah all the time. It’s a problem because he’s someone who it really bothers me with. I know that he’s a really smart person. He’s read a lot of books. He’s considered a lot of viewpoints. And then he somehow landed in this one??? I don’t get it. Why is money the driving force for your political ideology when your profound spiritual world is about the empowerment of every person on the planet? Do you not see the incongruity here? How do we make these two things marry up? We’ve been having this conversation for so long that it’s so big that it just snowballs every time I think about it.
INSTEAD OF TRYING TO STOP THAT SHIP FROM SINKING WHICH HAS BEEN SLOWLY SINKING FOR TEN YEARS OR MORE, I FEEL LIKE JUST POKING LITTLE TINY QUESTIONS AT PEOPLE INSTEAD OF TRYING TO POINT OUT HOW I FEEL ABOUT THEIR WORLDVIEW IS MUCH MORE PRODUCTIVE.
ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH DOING THAT IN MOST SITUATIONS?
YES. I THINK I’M TOO COMFORTABLE. PEOPLE DO GET UNCOMFORTABLE. AND I KIND OF ENVY THAT SOMETIMES. THAT SOMEONE HAS A BELIEF SO TRUE TO THEM THAT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS ‘WELL HAVE YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT FROM THIS PERSPECTIVE’ IT SHAKES THEM. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT IT FEELS LIKE.
I’m really trying to think of something that I feel very strongly is true. Maybe a women’s right to choose. What’s something that would change my mind about that? I know that when I meet people who are very pro-life that’s a good opportunity to say ‘at what point do you believe a bundle of cells becomes a life?’ ‘Oh the bundle of cells is a life at the moment that they come together.’ ‘Why do you believe that? What’s the difference between that bundle of cells and another one?’ The thing is, a divine act of intervention would be the thing that would probably change my mind on that. I feel like most of my opinions tend toward letting people solve their problems versus trying to have an answer ready for them. Because when you have an answer ready you’re not doing service to the question.
If theoretically you were to have a divine interaction do you think that you would believe it or just think that someone slipped you some acid today?
That’s a really good question. Because come on, what’re the odds that something like that happens? I think it would depend on how I feel about it. The resonance of it. I have had experiences that are mystical and unexplainable when I was completely sober. I’ve had experiences that definitely had a tangible feeling of the bizarre and the true. It’s just something to consider. The thing is, even when there is a divine moment of truth that bestows itself upon me, it’s not going to be a light switch moment either. It’s something to consider. It’s something to factor in. Maybe I would end up being like ‘yeah I know God said Christianity is right but I still just can’t do it’. I don’t know what I would do. Maybe I am so entrenched in my belief that I am so personally opposed to the thought of organized religion. I do believe that you should interpret your questions. I don’t know. Men from thousands of years ago don’t know the answers to your questions. You should listen to the questions and think about how you feel about them. But people feel like Christians about them. Sorry, I’m working through these thoughts as I’m saying them.
So you would definitely not be categorized as a religious person. That’s for sure?
Definitely not.
Would you be categorized as a spiritual person?
Definitely. When I was little I went to a Catholic grade school. Not that my family is Catholic, it was just a Montessori school. I remember when I was younger wanting to be a Priest. Sometimes I still think I should run away and be a monk and meditate forever and never touch a screen again. I do feel very moved by the spiritual existence on this plane. I do think that is something that exists. I could be convinced that there is not a spiritual plane if that was how I felt. But I do feel truly that I am a spiritual person. That’s what I’ve experienced and read a lot about.
Do you continue to read a lot about it?
Yeah, I’ve always been really fascinated by it. That may also be where my opposition to organized religion comes from.